Colloquial Cantonese: 嗰 vs 那

Source: http://www.omniglot.com/chinese/cantonese.htm

Colloquial Jyutping Cantonese		Standard Written Chinese		English
嗰	gó	那	nà néi	That or those

Continuing from my review of the Omniglot Colloquial Cantonese vs Mandarin Phrases sheet, the word, "that" or "those" is next to be reviewed on the list. If you haven’t seen my previous post on 呢 vs. 這, then I encourage you to read that one first since 嗰 vs 那 follows the same concept.

Once again, I will use the following shortcuts:

(CS) = Cantonese Speech (CW) = Cantonese Writing (M) = Mandarin (TM)= Taiwanese Speech or Southern China Mandarin)

Essentially, 嗰 and 那 have the same meaning of “that” which indicates a noun that is observed by the speaker.  In English, we differentiate the words “that” in reference to singular nouns and “those” in reference to plural nouns, but in Chinese, we do not have to change the words. We only quantify the noun to make it clear we are talking about more than one. For example, in the sentence, “Those five computers are heavy.”, we can say in Chinese, “That five [classifier] computers are heavy.” and it would make sense because quantifying the computers by stating that there are five of them already creates a plural meaning. If somebody wanted to talk about a computer, the Chinese would say “one [classifier] of computer...”

As I have mentioned in my 呢 vs. 這 post, the word “that” is usually accompanied by a classifier when mentioning a noun. Refer to this list for a thorough list of Chinese classifiers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_classifiers

Using classifiers can be tricky when switching between Cantonese and Mandarin because certain classifiers are only used mainly for one language or the other. You will have to be aware of it by experience. Since this post is not about classifiers, I will keep the confusion to a minimum by using classifiers that are shared between the Cantonese and Mandarin languages.

Examples:

That knife is sharp.

That [classifier for handful of] knife is sharp.

嗰把刀好利. (CS = go2 baa2 dou1 hou2 lei6)

那把刀很利. (CW = naa5 baa2 dou1 han2 lei6)

那把刀子很利. (M= na4/nei2 ba3 dao1 zi5 hen3 li4)

That man is tall.

That [classifier for individuals] man is tall.

嗰個男人好高. (CS = go2 go3 naam4 jan2 hou2 gou1)

那個男人很高. (CW = naa5 go3 naam4 jan2 han2 gou1)

                        那个男人很高. (M= na4/nei2 ge4 nan2 ren2 hen3 gao1)

Remember to use the general classifier 個/个 when in doubt of which classifier to use.

The Different Meanings of Na – Demystifying 那

While 嗰 has a distinct meaning for the word, “that,” 那 can be confusing even to native speakers of Chinese.

哪 na3 vs 那 na4

Many people confuse 哪 with 那 and I learned that 那 can be used interchangeably to mean 哪 even though it isn't truly correct.

Let’s learn their original meanings:

那 = na4 = that, then

哪 = na3 = which, where, how, what

In both cases, the Cantonese pronunciation is naa5.

One easy way to remember the tone is to practice pointing at an object and use the mighty fourth tone to say “na4!” (that!). For other meanings, use na3 to remind yourself that it is about uncertainty and you need a “mouth” radical for verification (the mouth radical is the extra mouth character 口 on the left side of the word 哪 when compared to 那).

Example 1

Here’s a fun Taiwanese or Southern Chinese Mandarin example that would help you understand it better. We will be having a little fun with the word, 哪裡 meaning “where” and “那裡” meaning  “there.”

我把刀子在哪裡?

 I [handful classifier] knife at where inside?

Where is my knife?

TM: wo3 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 na3 li3?

你把刀子在那裡.

You [handful classifier] knife at that inside.

                                Your knife is [over] there.

TM: ni3 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 na4 li3.

                               

Note: The term, 那裡 and 那裏 are interchangeable and have the same meaning. You might see one term or the other.

See? All it takes is one character to alter the meaning. Alternatively, we may see the phrase with the character 哪 written as a 那 instead with the meaning of "where, etc.":

你把刀(子)在那裡?

The sentence is also correct as a lot of people write it that way, but technically, it’s incorrect. If a person wrote it that way, it is up to the reader to determine which “na” is the correct one based on context.

In standard Mandarin (Beijing and northern area of China):

我把刀子在哪兒? M: wo3 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 nar3?

你把刀子在那兒. M: ni3 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 nar4.

In Spoken Cantonese:

我把刀喺邊度呀? CS : ngo5 baa2 dou1 hai2 bin1 dou6 aa3?

你把刀喺嗰度呀. CS : nei5 baa2 dou1 hai2 go2 dou6 aa3.

In Written Cantonese:

我把刀在何處?

                                CW: ngo5 baa2 dou1 zoi6 ho4 cyu3?

你把刀在那裡.

            CW: nei5 baa2 dou1 zoi6 naa5 leoi5.

I’m aware that there are many ways to say and write the word, “where” in Chinese. I just used one of the terms that I am comfortable with.

Example 2

We can also make a sentence with 哪 meaning “which.”

哪把刀子是我的?

Which [handful classifier] knife is mine?

                                Which knife is mine?

M: na3/nei2 ba3 dao1 zi5 shi4 wo3 de5?

那把刀子是你的.

That [handful classifier] knife is yours.

                                That knife is yours.

M: na4/nei2 ba3 dao1 zi5 shi4 ni3 de5.

Alternatively:

哪把刀是我的?

            CW: naa5 baa2 dou1 si6 ngo5 dik1?

那把刀是你的.

            CW: naa5 baa2 dou1 si6 nei5 dik1.

邊把刀係我嘅/㗎?

            CS: bin1 baa2 dou1 hai6 ngo5 ge3/gaa3?

 (㗎= a contraction of 嘅 ge3 +呀 aa3. When speaking, use either 嘅 or 㗎 as a final particle, but not both.)

嗰把刀係你嘅/㗎.

            CS: go2 baa2 dou1 hai6 nei5 ge3/gaa3.

那 na4 vs nei2 Pronunciation

You may have noticed that sometimes na4 is pronounced nei2 and many people do not understand when to use nei2. Thanks to an online user named “Staarkali,” on the wordreference.com forum, I have been enlightened.

From my research, the word nei2 is not to be used directly before a noun, but before a classifier. Therefore, in the previous example 1, you may not write or say:

你把刀子在那裡. TM: ni3 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 nei2 li3. (The word, inside 裡, is a noun.)

你把刀子在那兒.  M: ni3 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 nei2 er5. (The word, 那兒, is a noun.)

The nei2 pronunciation is actually a contraction of the phrase “那一” meaning, “that one.”

那一 = (M) na4 yi1  (C) naa5 jat1 = that one

If you say it fast enough, slurring the two words together, you can hear yourself saying something that sounds close to the “nei2” sound. The “nayi” sound becomes “nei.”  Consequently, the 一 character becomes implied. This contraction only applies to the Mandarin language.

Using the previous example once more with 一 being omitted:

那(一)把刀子在那裡. TM: nei2 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 na4 li3.

那(一)把刀子在那兒.  M: nei2 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 nar4.

That one [handful classifier] knife is at there.

That one knife is over there.

Note: The pinyin spelling for 那一 is contracted to “nei2.”

呢 nei1 vs 那 nei2

I want to make a final note to my readers to not confuse the two “nei1” sounds.

We learned 呢 ni1/nei1 previously to mean the word for “this” in Cantonese. Since we learned in Mandarin that 那 na3 can become nei2, could the same contraction happen for the Cantonese 呢 ni1? The sound "nei1" also exists for the the character, 呢.

While I do not find any evidence that 呢 nei1 = this one 呢一, I do believe that perhaps nei1 is used as more of a regional pronunciation than for grammar reasons because Cantonese speakers still use the phrase “呢一” exactly the way it is read and written without omitting the “一” part.

Since the pronunciation nei1 is so close to the pinyin pronunciation nei2, I hope everybody does not confuse the two since jyutping nei1 means “this” and pinyin nei2 means “that.” We want to communicate our true meaning at all times. This topic is something that I find myself confused about so that is why I am mentioning it.

So, I hope you enjoyed my second post in the Omniglot Colloquial Cantonese vs Mandarin Phrases series. I will see you next time when we expand on what we already know to learn “here” and “there.” In the meantime, see if you can incorporate the vocabulary you've learned so far in both Cantonese and Mandarin.

Colloquial Cantonese: 呢 vs. 這

Source: http://www.omniglot.com/chinese/cantonese.htm

Since I’m so inspired by Colloquial Cantonese vs Mandarin phrases, I’ll try to review each one from the Omniglot Cantonese list until we finish the list. This will be fun! My Mandarin skills are not that good so I want to apologize if my Mandarin examples are not realistic.

Note: When formally writing in Cantonese, the Mandarin version is used instead. Colloquial Cantonese is only used in speech or when quoting speech. Therefore, I will designate:

(M) = Mandarin

(CS) = Cantonese Speech

(CW) = Cantonese Writing

This week’s list is: 呢 vs. 這

Colloquial Jyutping Cantonese		Standard Written Chinese		English
呢	ni1 ne1	這	zhè	this

I’m surprised to see the Chinese word meaning “this” by itself. Usually, even in English writing, it is generally bad form to write the word, “this,” without indicating what the speaker is referring to afterwards.

“This chair…”

“This bottle of water…”

There’s always creative ways to indicate the subject, but eventually, the reader needs to know what is being referenced. Of course, when we speak or when we want to be general, we’d just say “this” or “that” by itself with the meaning usually implied to the listener through surrounding words or by our actions.

*Claps hands* “This is great!”

But, what is great? Generally, there is a clue somewhere in the person’s previous or future sentences or actions.

In Chinese, however, the absence of a reference is painfully obvious. Even in speech, it would sound so awkward without a reference. Using the almost equivalent meaning of the sentence above, but in Chinese instead, the phrase would sound better to omit the entire “this” word instead of adding words without a proper reference:

 [這个…]真的很好!

[zhè ge4…]  zhen1 de hen3 hao3! (Mandarin - literally means “really very good!”)

[呢個…] 真係好啊!

[ni1 go3…] zan1 hai6 hou2 aa1 (Colloquial Cantonese - - literally means “really is good!”))

The above phrases in bold could mean “so great!” or “really great!” “truly great” or “awesome!”  Notice how the Mandarin sentence is different from the Cantonese sentence because the way the message is naturally delivered is different. It would be awkward to use the sentence in the other language unless the speaker is trying to prove a point. Otherwise, if I heard a Cantonese speaker say, “真的很好!” to me, I would think he or she is reading some text outloud instead of actually speaking. Or it could be that the speaker is purposely joking around with me using “proper” language since we have a close enough relationship. I don’t know for sure how “真係好啊!” would sound to a Mandarin speaker, but they would definitely think it’s weird.

Did you notice that in the silent brackets above, I added a “classifier” 个or 個after 這or 呢? That is almost always mandatory.

Nobody would say: “這真的很好!” or  “呢真係好啊!”

I would call these sentences “incomplete” and they do not exist in everyday language. Native speakers yearn for a classifier to go with the word. (This piece of paper. This pair of chopsticks. This slice of pizza.)

“這个真的很好!”or“呢個真係好啊!” 
Now, in this case, we have a classifier to indicate the possibilities of the subject. At least we now have a clue about the subject, but since the speaker used the most general classifier, 个 or  個, it’s still anybody’s guess. The above sentence is still a better sentence than the previous one, but it is still not that specific and might be confusing.

Sometimes, the speaker wants to be vague on purpose and perhaps the listener already knows what the subject is from previous or later sentences or actions. In that case, there’s no explanation needed. If not,  it’s still better to stick to the “真的很好!”or “真係好啊!”part since it is still considered more easier to listen to with the subject implied. Then we expect a curious listener to come up to the speaker and ask, (M) 什么? shen2 me5? (CS) 乜嘢呀?  mat1 je5 aa3? (CW) 甚麼? sam6 mo1? That question, of course, is “what?”

什么真的很好?                                乜嘢咁好呀?

Note: 咁gam3, which is (CS) for “so.”

In order to make ourselves clear, we can give all the information that’s needed in one sentence:

This + classifier + subject (or object depending on the case)

Now, if you haven’t learned classifiers yet, there are so many ways to identify the subject or object. In English, we sometimes use classifiers such as “a set of” or “a sheet of,” but the only difference is that it is not mandatory in English.  I can say “these chopsticks” or “this paper.” Saying, “a book” instead of “a bounded book” is okay in English without sacrificing the meaning.  In the Chinese language, the listener would still be waiting for the classifier if it is absent or else the listener would be confused.

 In the Chinese language, there are so many classifier words, which would sound weird if it was left out of a sentence. Some people use the alternative term “measurement words” even though some classifiers do not actually measure anything.

Here’s a great website which lists Chinese classifiers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_classifiers

Perhaps, I might write up some posts explaining classifiers in the future.

Lastly, let’s take my trusted friend, Rilakkuma to give us an example of what we learned so far: (M) = Mandarin (CS)= Cantonese Speech

Rilakkuma /松弛熊 song1 chi2 xiong2 (M)

Rilakkuma /鬆弛熊 sung1 ci4 hung4 (C)

Rilakkuma is named after the Japanese stuffed animal which literally means “relax” + “bear”

這只熊真的很好! 松弛熊真的很好!

呢隻熊真係好啊! 鬆弛熊真係好啊!

When in doubt about which classifiers to use, try to use 個 (go3 in Cantonese) or 个 (ge4 in Mandarin). They are the most generic classifiers. In my example, I used the classifier for animals: 只 (zhi1 in Mandarin) or 隻 zek3 (in Cantonese)

Advanced Question: Why did I not use the English word, “is” or 是? (M) shi4 (C) si6

“This bear is really great!”

這只熊是真的很好!

呢隻熊係真係好啊!

Short Answer: 是 is generally omitted when used with adjectives. In our case, we’re talking about the degree of greatness (adverb, verb).

I’ll probably explain more about the use of 是 in a future post since I did extensive research on this topic for this post.

My Chinese isn’t that great (不太好) so feel free to correct me.

不太好= bu4 tai4 hao3 (M) bat1 taai3 hou2 (CW – Cantonese Writing)