Colloquial Cantonese: 嗰 vs 那

Source: http://www.omniglot.com/chinese/cantonese.htm

Colloquial Jyutping Cantonese		Standard Written Chinese		English
嗰	gó	那	nà néi	That or those

Continuing from my review of the Omniglot Colloquial Cantonese vs Mandarin Phrases sheet, the word, "that" or "those" is next to be reviewed on the list. If you haven’t seen my previous post on 呢 vs. 這, then I encourage you to read that one first since 嗰 vs 那 follows the same concept.

Once again, I will use the following shortcuts:

(CS) = Cantonese Speech (CW) = Cantonese Writing (M) = Mandarin (TM)= Taiwanese Speech or Southern China Mandarin)

Essentially, 嗰 and 那 have the same meaning of “that” which indicates a noun that is observed by the speaker.  In English, we differentiate the words “that” in reference to singular nouns and “those” in reference to plural nouns, but in Chinese, we do not have to change the words. We only quantify the noun to make it clear we are talking about more than one. For example, in the sentence, “Those five computers are heavy.”, we can say in Chinese, “That five [classifier] computers are heavy.” and it would make sense because quantifying the computers by stating that there are five of them already creates a plural meaning. If somebody wanted to talk about a computer, the Chinese would say “one [classifier] of computer...”

As I have mentioned in my 呢 vs. 這 post, the word “that” is usually accompanied by a classifier when mentioning a noun. Refer to this list for a thorough list of Chinese classifiers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_classifiers

Using classifiers can be tricky when switching between Cantonese and Mandarin because certain classifiers are only used mainly for one language or the other. You will have to be aware of it by experience. Since this post is not about classifiers, I will keep the confusion to a minimum by using classifiers that are shared between the Cantonese and Mandarin languages.

Examples:

That knife is sharp.

That [classifier for handful of] knife is sharp.

嗰把刀好利. (CS = go2 baa2 dou1 hou2 lei6)

那把刀很利. (CW = naa5 baa2 dou1 han2 lei6)

那把刀子很利. (M= na4/nei2 ba3 dao1 zi5 hen3 li4)

That man is tall.

That [classifier for individuals] man is tall.

嗰個男人好高. (CS = go2 go3 naam4 jan2 hou2 gou1)

那個男人很高. (CW = naa5 go3 naam4 jan2 han2 gou1)

                        那个男人很高. (M= na4/nei2 ge4 nan2 ren2 hen3 gao1)

Remember to use the general classifier 個/个 when in doubt of which classifier to use.

The Different Meanings of Na – Demystifying 那

While 嗰 has a distinct meaning for the word, “that,” 那 can be confusing even to native speakers of Chinese.

哪 na3 vs 那 na4

Many people confuse 哪 with 那 and I learned that 那 can be used interchangeably to mean 哪 even though it isn't truly correct.

Let’s learn their original meanings:

那 = na4 = that, then

哪 = na3 = which, where, how, what

In both cases, the Cantonese pronunciation is naa5.

One easy way to remember the tone is to practice pointing at an object and use the mighty fourth tone to say “na4!” (that!). For other meanings, use na3 to remind yourself that it is about uncertainty and you need a “mouth” radical for verification (the mouth radical is the extra mouth character 口 on the left side of the word 哪 when compared to 那).

Example 1

Here’s a fun Taiwanese or Southern Chinese Mandarin example that would help you understand it better. We will be having a little fun with the word, 哪裡 meaning “where” and “那裡” meaning  “there.”

我把刀子在哪裡?

 I [handful classifier] knife at where inside?

Where is my knife?

TM: wo3 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 na3 li3?

你把刀子在那裡.

You [handful classifier] knife at that inside.

                                Your knife is [over] there.

TM: ni3 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 na4 li3.

                               

Note: The term, 那裡 and 那裏 are interchangeable and have the same meaning. You might see one term or the other.

See? All it takes is one character to alter the meaning. Alternatively, we may see the phrase with the character 哪 written as a 那 instead with the meaning of "where, etc.":

你把刀(子)在那裡?

The sentence is also correct as a lot of people write it that way, but technically, it’s incorrect. If a person wrote it that way, it is up to the reader to determine which “na” is the correct one based on context.

In standard Mandarin (Beijing and northern area of China):

我把刀子在哪兒? M: wo3 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 nar3?

你把刀子在那兒. M: ni3 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 nar4.

In Spoken Cantonese:

我把刀喺邊度呀? CS : ngo5 baa2 dou1 hai2 bin1 dou6 aa3?

你把刀喺嗰度呀. CS : nei5 baa2 dou1 hai2 go2 dou6 aa3.

In Written Cantonese:

我把刀在何處?

                                CW: ngo5 baa2 dou1 zoi6 ho4 cyu3?

你把刀在那裡.

            CW: nei5 baa2 dou1 zoi6 naa5 leoi5.

I’m aware that there are many ways to say and write the word, “where” in Chinese. I just used one of the terms that I am comfortable with.

Example 2

We can also make a sentence with 哪 meaning “which.”

哪把刀子是我的?

Which [handful classifier] knife is mine?

                                Which knife is mine?

M: na3/nei2 ba3 dao1 zi5 shi4 wo3 de5?

那把刀子是你的.

That [handful classifier] knife is yours.

                                That knife is yours.

M: na4/nei2 ba3 dao1 zi5 shi4 ni3 de5.

Alternatively:

哪把刀是我的?

            CW: naa5 baa2 dou1 si6 ngo5 dik1?

那把刀是你的.

            CW: naa5 baa2 dou1 si6 nei5 dik1.

邊把刀係我嘅/㗎?

            CS: bin1 baa2 dou1 hai6 ngo5 ge3/gaa3?

 (㗎= a contraction of 嘅 ge3 +呀 aa3. When speaking, use either 嘅 or 㗎 as a final particle, but not both.)

嗰把刀係你嘅/㗎.

            CS: go2 baa2 dou1 hai6 nei5 ge3/gaa3.

那 na4 vs nei2 Pronunciation

You may have noticed that sometimes na4 is pronounced nei2 and many people do not understand when to use nei2. Thanks to an online user named “Staarkali,” on the wordreference.com forum, I have been enlightened.

From my research, the word nei2 is not to be used directly before a noun, but before a classifier. Therefore, in the previous example 1, you may not write or say:

你把刀子在那裡. TM: ni3 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 nei2 li3. (The word, inside 裡, is a noun.)

你把刀子在那兒.  M: ni3 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 nei2 er5. (The word, 那兒, is a noun.)

The nei2 pronunciation is actually a contraction of the phrase “那一” meaning, “that one.”

那一 = (M) na4 yi1  (C) naa5 jat1 = that one

If you say it fast enough, slurring the two words together, you can hear yourself saying something that sounds close to the “nei2” sound. The “nayi” sound becomes “nei.”  Consequently, the 一 character becomes implied. This contraction only applies to the Mandarin language.

Using the previous example once more with 一 being omitted:

那(一)把刀子在那裡. TM: nei2 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 na4 li3.

那(一)把刀子在那兒.  M: nei2 ba3 dao1 zi5 zai4 nar4.

That one [handful classifier] knife is at there.

That one knife is over there.

Note: The pinyin spelling for 那一 is contracted to “nei2.”

呢 nei1 vs 那 nei2

I want to make a final note to my readers to not confuse the two “nei1” sounds.

We learned 呢 ni1/nei1 previously to mean the word for “this” in Cantonese. Since we learned in Mandarin that 那 na3 can become nei2, could the same contraction happen for the Cantonese 呢 ni1? The sound "nei1" also exists for the the character, 呢.

While I do not find any evidence that 呢 nei1 = this one 呢一, I do believe that perhaps nei1 is used as more of a regional pronunciation than for grammar reasons because Cantonese speakers still use the phrase “呢一” exactly the way it is read and written without omitting the “一” part.

Since the pronunciation nei1 is so close to the pinyin pronunciation nei2, I hope everybody does not confuse the two since jyutping nei1 means “this” and pinyin nei2 means “that.” We want to communicate our true meaning at all times. This topic is something that I find myself confused about so that is why I am mentioning it.

So, I hope you enjoyed my second post in the Omniglot Colloquial Cantonese vs Mandarin Phrases series. I will see you next time when we expand on what we already know to learn “here” and “there.” In the meantime, see if you can incorporate the vocabulary you've learned so far in both Cantonese and Mandarin.

Historical Series: Qin Dynasty, Qin Shihuang, and the Terracotta Warriors – Part 1 – The Warring States Period, Pre-Qin Dynasty

Ever since I went to the Terracotta Warrior exhibit in Times Square, I wanted to know more about the history of China. To be honest, I have never been interested in China’s history because it’s such a long time period and hard to understand, but now, I am starting to appreciate the Qin dynasty’s interesting story. Before you can say how boring this subject is, I assure you, it’s not as boring as you would think. I will try to keep it as easy to understand and interesting as much as possible.

I would like to thank the Terracotta Warrior exhibit, Cantonese Sheik Dictionary, and Wikipedia for all the factual information on this blog.

Let’s start at the pre-Qin Dynasty period: The Warring States period.

Credit: wikimedia.org

During the Warring States Period (戰國時代 zin3 gwok3 si4 doi6 in Cantonese/ 战国时代 zhan4 guo2 shi2 dai4 in Mandarin or alternatively known as  戰國七雄 zin3 gwok3 cat1 hung4 in Cantonese or 战国七雄 zhan4 guo2 qi1 xiong2 in Mandarin to have a similar meaning like “The Mighty Seven Warring States”) happened at arguably around 475 B.C. There were seven states that ruled the land of China, each refusing to succumb to the other states. The seven states are usually listed in the following order:

Qin – Western state- 秦 ceon4 (C) qin2 (M)

Qi – Mid-Eastern State- 齊 cai4 (C)  齐  qi2 (M)

Chu – Southern State- 楚 co2 (C) chu3 (M)

Yan – North-Eastern State- 燕 yin1 (C) yan1 (M)

Han – Mid-South State- 韓 hon4 (C ) 韩 han2 (M)

Zhao – Mid-Northern State- 趙 ziu6 (C)  赵 zhao4 (M)

Wei – Middle state- 魏 ngai6 (C)  wei4 (M)

Note: (C) = Cantonese (M) = Mandarin 

The ruler of these states acted like kings, but not at the level where they believe they were the “mandate of heaven” as in acting based on the gods’ directions or heaven’s orders as the Zhou emperors had claimed before them.

Warring States Currency

Warring States Period Currency

 What fascinated me about the seven states is that they each had their own type of currency. One type of currency can be clearly seen in one scene of the movie, “Hero” when the character “Nameless” (Jet Li) drops some currency into the blind old man’s dish before fighting “Long Sky” (Donnie Yen).  Can you imagine carrying currency that looks like a long meat cleaver? Or how about imagining your favorite wuxia hero strolling down the streets carrying bulky Qi “broad-swords” currency?

Basically, the Qin state conquered all the other states one by one with Han State in 230 B.C., located directly east, being the first to surrender and Qi being the last to surrender in 221 B.C.. It was like the Qin empire went bowling and knocked down the other states over a span of many years.

Credit: www.chinaknowledge.org

In 230 B.C., the Qin state conquered the Han state based on fear. The Qin state attacked the Zhao state, leading King An of Han to think that the Han state would be the next target. King An of Han quickly sent diplomats to surrender his kingdom without a fight to prevent further bloodshed.

In 225 B.C., The Qin state conquered the Wei state. The Wei state was fortified with strong walls so the Qin state decided to use the Yellow River to flood the city. King Jia of Wei was forced to leave the city and surrender to the Qin army in order to save his people.

In 223 B.C., the Chu state fell, but not without a good fight. Initially, the Qin attack was led by an inexperienced general named Li Xin. The Chu forces, familiar with their own territory, was able to drive the Qin forces back and burned down two of Qin’s large camps. The Chu forces then waited confidently for Qin’s second invasion, but after a year, it seemed as though the Qin army was reluctant to attack. The Chu army made the grave mistake of disbanding during what they thought was a time of peace. The Qin quickly seized the moment and attacked with full force. Up to a million soldiers participated in this battle, which was significantly larger than the previous Qin battle with Zhou. The Chu kept fighting using guerrilla-style tactics until their leader, Lord Changping of Chu, died.

In 222 B.C., the Zhao state was conquered by Qin followed by the Yan state. After the news of Zhao’s downfall, Crown Prince Dan of Yan sent an assassin named Jing Ke to assassinate the king of Qin. After Jing Ke failed, the king of Qin, became enraged  and ordered more troops to over to the Yan state, which was ultimately conquered.

Finally in 221 B.C., the last state, Qi, was conquered. The Qi state did not assist the other states in the battle against the Qin state. When the Qi state heard that the Qin army was coming to invade the Qi state, the Qi state quickly surrendered, signifying the end of the Warring States Period and the unification of China under the Qin dynasty.

Why was the Qin state so powerful? The Qin army was huge and led by ruthless generals. The Qin generals disregarded all former “war etiquette” and did not fight honorably. For example, waiting for the enemy to cross a river and gathering their forces afterwards like Duke Xiang of Song did for the Chu army before starting a fair fight is out of the question. (By the way, Duke Xiang lost the fight.) If the enemy had a weakness, the Qin army used it to their advantage. The Qin employed qualified men from other states and the army itself did not suffer from internal struggles.

For each state that was conquered, the Qin empire was ruthless. King Zheng, the king of Qin, ordered all weapons to be confiscated and melted down.  All scholarly books were burned and scholars killed. King Zheng eliminated the possibilities of further uprisings and rebellions against him.

While the Qin state was very powerful, they were seen as savage. On the Wikipedia website, a nobleman from the state of Wei criticized the Qin state as "avaricious, perverse, eager for profit, and without sincerity. It knows nothing about etiquette, proper relationships, and virtuous conduct, and if there be an opportunity for material gain, it will disregard its relatives as if they were animals."

In 221 B.C., after all of what seems to be China at the time was conquered with all the other states defeated, the king of Qin, 秦王(ceon4 wong4 in Cantonese, qin2 wang2 in Mandarin), changed his title from his given name 赵正/趙正 (Ziu6 Zing3 in Cantonese, Zhào Zhèng in Mandarin) to Qin Shihuang 秦始皇, the shortened title, or by his more formal title 秦始皇帝(ceon4 ci2 wong4 dai3 in Cantonese, Qín Shǐ Huángdì in Mandarin), meaning the “first emperor of China.”

Previously, in the Zhou dynasty in 1045 B.C., a ruler called himself “王” (wong4 in Cantonese, wang2 in Mandarin), which took the meaning of “big man” at the time. Later on, the word 王 was adapted to mean “king” of “chief.”  So, 秦王 would mean “Qin Ruler” or “King of Qin” or “Qin King.”

After the King of Qin conquered all of China, he discussed his appropriate title with his ministers. The ministers suggested the title, “Tai Huang” 太皇 (taai3 wong4 in Cantonese, tai4 huang2 in Mandarin), but the king believed he embodied the virtues and achievements of the 三皇五帝 (saam1 wong4 ng5 dai3 in Cantonese, sān huáng wǔ dì in Mandarin) Three Monarchs and Five Emperors. Therefore, the king of Qin removed the characters Tai 太and added Di 帝 to create Huang Di 皇帝. Since he was the first emperor, he called himself “Shi,” meaning “the first” His full title then became 秦始皇帝.

In the title, 秦始皇帝:

始 means “first” of the “start.” The emperor’s heirs would be then titled “Second Emperor,” “Third Emperor,” etc.

皇帝 means “emperor” if you put the two characters together. If you break the characters apart, it means something like “royal surpreme-ruler.” Scary, huh? In ancient times, hearing the term may make our body tremble. In this modern time period, this term is not that scary. In fact, this is a term you would use to refer to a lazy person who makes a lot of demands. At least in Cantonese, a parent would probably refer to her child as a “couch potato” son or daughter, 皇帝仔/皇帝女 (wong4 dai3 zai2 in Cantonese, huang2 di4 er2 zi5 in Mandarin / wong4 dai3 neoi5 in Cantonese, huang2 di4 nv3 er2 in Mandarin).

The Qin dynasty lasted from 221 B.C. to 207 B.C. Future dynasties, especially the next dynasty, the Han dynasty, retained many Qin dynasty structural elements during their rule. In fact, the Romanized name of the Chinese country, China, is derived from the Qin dynasty based on European knowledge at the time.

In part two, I will explain more about the life of China’s famous ruler, 秦始皇. Qín Shǐ Huáng was a strong ruler, yet he had his dark sides. Be sure to check out the next part!